Combat system.How should it work?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Hisoka, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. Tokikaze

    Tokikaze Treasure Hunter Knight 2018 Red VIP Dark Green VIP Black VIP Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer

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    Ok. I know that there's a lot of thread about this topic, but I didn't see any improvement in any of it...
    What am I looking for is a combat system that would allow parrying system.
    [​IMG]
    The system can be simplyfied in the classic scheme(LMB=Attack,RMB=Block), but it can be pretty boring, because it would lead to an excessive spamming of the attack button.
    I think the system can be improved in this system:
    LMB=(Press)Rapid attack,(Hold)Heavy attack,(Perfect timing)Motion delay of the opponent
    RMB=(Hold)Block,(Press)Parrying,(Perfect timing)Motion delay.
    This system doesn't end here. The attack/defense can have its pros and cons. The direction,force and type of weapon can show the effectiveness of the attack/defense, or the weakness in it, such as a blind spot.
    Only studying the opponent's combat style can show its effectiveness/weakness
    The skills, also, should not be limited to a simple key in the keyboard(as it happens in most of the MMORPGs). A skill could be activated by a specific combination(for example, holding the attack key and moving to a specific direction)
    What do you think of this idea?Feel free to give an impression of it(I accept criticism ;) )
     
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  2. whitecorey98

    whitecorey98 Adventurer Adventurer

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    I really like this idea and I suggest make it to where when an enemy attacks if u right click before impact u can parry and do a counter attack
     
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  3. Tokikaze

    Tokikaze Treasure Hunter Knight 2018 Red VIP Dark Green VIP Black VIP Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer

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    I only hope that the players will not spam the RMB to do the counter.
    What about giving the possibility of counter only when there's a perfect timing parrying That would lead to a motion delay for the mobs.The players would simply lose balance.
    If the perfect timing parrying is not triggered, you have to rely only on the block or, if you're in a party, relying on the 'switch' system.
     
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  4. whitecorey98

    whitecorey98 Adventurer Adventurer

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    Good idea m80
     
  5. Rinny

    Rinny Adventurer Adventurer

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    One thing that popped into my mind while reading this was whether everyone should be able to block. Obviously the bonus of using a shield would be to block and reduce incoming damage. But I fell like it should have a downside compared to not using one. What comes to mind first is mobility. It could be something along the lines of RMB would block is you have a shield, but if you don't then RMB dashes in x direction. If the player times their dash perfectly with an attack then the enemy stumbles leaving them open to an attack, similar to a parry. Just kind of throwing out ideas here but I feel like their should be at least some cons in using a shield.
     
  6. Tokikaze

    Tokikaze Treasure Hunter Knight 2018 Red VIP Dark Green VIP Black VIP Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer

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    That should work too,since blocking without a shield equipped would damage the weapon very bad
     
  7. Kigana

    Kigana Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer

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    A couple things to add, I think that a parry should only be achieved if you press block in a certain "sweet spot" of the opponent's attack. Being too early, too late, or not applying enough pressure would result in a block rather than a parry (This would stop players from spamming RMB as soon as the see an attack as they need to hold the position for a set amount of time, rather than spam the button.

    Parrying could result in a counter attack while a block should significantly reduce incoming damage. Players should still receive a LITTLE damage when blocking, otherwise why would you let go of RMB? (Unless another system is added such as block-breakers, tumble conditions, etc.)

    I like the idea of moving away from keyboard keys, though I don't see how it could work effectively, there just isn't enough control to differentiate a whole bunch off skills from an attack button and a couple directions of movement. I think keyboard buttons would be good enough, or maybe they could combine both keyboard buttons and movement.

    Lastly in order to provide a bonus for more defensive weapons such as a shield, these players could take a significantly less amount of damage blocking than a person blocking with a melee weapon. This would give shields a genuine use and would form the backbone of a tanky specialization.
     
  8. Anon

    Anon Black VIP Warlord Veteran Knight Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer Oldtimer

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    Because it would break their weapons.
     
  9. Kigana

    Kigana Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer

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    I guess that could be another way of getting around players holding down block. The more you block the more it drains your weapon durability. Though I still believe players should take a portion of the attack as a block wouldn't be able to absorb the whole impact (only a timed parry would result in taking no damage). Though I would be open to hear criticism if people feel otherwise.

    One example is the skill: Cross Parry in TERA, in which you can block an attack but still receive a small amount of that damage (the damage you take is based on your weapon stats). So that way you can't sit there and block all day but instead have to hit block only when necessary.

    I realise that this could also be achieved with equipment durability but the one difference is in tanking situations. If you go with armor durability, then a tank would be able to hold down block in front of a boss and tank every single bit of damage with no cost to his health. When his shield breaks, he equips another one and keeps going, which is kind of lame. If the player took a small percentage of damage however it would make a more fair system of tanking while also making systems such as off-tanks and pot rotations necessary.
     
  10. Tokikaze

    Tokikaze Treasure Hunter Knight 2018 Red VIP Dark Green VIP Black VIP Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer

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    Damage caused by 'Block' will always be a feature when you have to balance attack and defense.Another possibility it's that every time you got hit by an enemy, you lose a little bit of health, but also lose a certain amount of stamina. This should force the player who want to tank to improve in their stamina, and sacrifice the speed.
    Also, depending by the type of shield you have, you will lose a specified amount of damage.For example, a wooden shield will not defend you very well as a iron/steel one.That goes also for the size of the shield.
    While for the parrying, I already explained it. Doing a 'perfect timing' parry will permit a motion delay for the mobs and,for the players,the lose of balance.If this will not be triggered, 'switch' or dodging will be your best chance not to lose too much health.
    That would take a lot of time for scripting.Trying to hit such a little spot in the game would be almost impossible if played on the keyboard(only using the Oculus and the Hydra Razer would be possible, but I don't think AoA will feature VR for now).However, that would be changed into the 'Critical' hit, that would deal a certain amount of damaged based by the two weapons that clashed.
     
  11. mendiolanivelle

    mendiolanivelle

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    its more like phantasy star online 2..
     
  12. Theoian

    Theoian

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    If they use a parriying system like in mount and blade where if you're using a shield you block all incoming attacks from the front, but the con of a shield is you're REALLY slow. But it's easier to block. If you're using a sword you can only block from a certain direction but you're faster and more agile.
     
  13. LeSpaceCow

    LeSpaceCow Adventurer Adventurer

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    How would it be if you could attack in different ways. Of course if you attack from the behind you do critical damage, when you engage in a fight and you hit the enemy while running towards him you do a little extra damage, but not too much so players run the whole time around only to run at them and then attack all the time like that. ( I only want a breakless and cool engange with a cool animation maybe.) And another option would be to jump and then strike to make more damage, but you are completly unprotected while you are jumping, so you can not block, that aside if you are injured while you jump, because you have been hit then you fall on the ground and cant defend yourself against your opponent. But that results in the question when to make that jumpstrike... thing. There are two ways: The first one is to wait for the opponent to let himself open like after he did a heavy strike because he needs now time to attack again, which would make this method more effective against the guys with heavy weapons. Or you obtain a skill with a cooldown where you hit with the downside of your sword on the opponents head to stun/confuse the opponent and then you have time to launch such a attack, without having to fear that you are going to be hit, if you dont fight more than one that is. MAYBE that also could have a cool animation. (IMPORTANT: because I talk about having time to launch this attack, doesnt mean you need much time neither does it great damage, it is just supposed to be a basic attack not a skill with cooldown which inflicts high damage on the target, that you must earn, so this would be not a major change in the speed of the fight.
     
  14. Tokikaze

    Tokikaze Treasure Hunter Knight 2018 Red VIP Dark Green VIP Black VIP Young Knight Seasoned Adventurer

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    I love that this thread is having so many opinions. I hope I can see more incoming :D
    That made me think of something that come in handy when you have to face a lancer-wielder, or any weapon with a long range.If you are equipped with a sword and a shield,by pressing the first time the RMB,you can block with the shield, when the long-range weapon attack again, from the other side, you press the RMB again, and the defensive goes on the sword.And if you have a good timing, by pressing the LMB, you can attack with the shield, stunning the foe.I think you get the idea...
    Finding a blind spot of your opponent can lead you to victory, using a specified skill. For example, if your opponent is heavily protected on the chest, but not on the arms and legs(to compensate the weight and agility), you can use a skill that can hit his/her legs.Or if he/she is tanking, use a bashing skill to make him/her fall.
    While for the jumpstrike, that reminded me of the original SAO Two-handed sword skill 'Avalanche'(this one)
    [​IMG]
    As you said, can deal heavy damage, but you're not protected by attacks. It can be useful when the opponent is stunned, unable to counter your attack.You were very detailed in that :)
    A little improvement is that you can use it with any weapon(maybe we're excluding the spears and the scythes),1H and 2H,but it's more effective with those weapons:greatswords,battleaxes,hammers and 1H axes)
     
  15. LeSpaceCow

    LeSpaceCow Adventurer Adventurer

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    What I would suggest is the heavier this weapon is the longer it takes. I know that this is very obvious but i just wanted to say it
     
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  16. Anase Skyrider

    Anase Skyrider Seasoned Adventurer Alpha Key Holder

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    I have some ideas for the combat system. I think it should be a hack-and-slash, but with some more unique mechanics. This is gonna take me a while to write, especially because I want it to be really clean and organized so that it's easier to read, and also just because it looks nice.

    Attacking
    You attack by pressing the Left Mouse Button. Holding it down does a power attack. The swing is slower, making it easier to dodge/block/parry/etc, but it also deals more damage when it lands. Armor with a high defense rating can reduce this damage. You can swing in different directions by holding directional keys. So forward, left, right, behind, up, down, and anywhere in between (so there's like crouch and jump strikes and stuff). Maybe include a button you can hold so that you can swing in a direction without moving, like a movement-lock key.

    Blocking
    You block by holding the Right Mouse Button. Blocking can only be done while equipping a shield, and can be held indefinitely. Blocking doesn't absorb all damage. You block all incoming front-facing damage (so you're still vulnerable from the behind if you're not careful). The more damage you block, the more durability hits you take to your shield. Shields slow you down, so smaller shields reduce this effect, but also have lower durability and block less damage, whereas bigger shields slow you down more, but have more durability and block more damage (but never 100%).

    Parrying
    You parry by holding the Right Mouse Button. Parrying can only be done while not equipping a shield, and can be held indefinitely. Parrying absorbs less damage than blocking the smallest shields, and has a greater hit to your durability than it would for a shield. Parrying also blocks a single specific direction of attack, making it extremely difficult to use. If your opponent strikes to the bottom-right, but you only block right, then you'll be hit (Although maybe it can be broadened if it's too difficult to use for balancing issues).

    Dodging
    You dodge by pressing the Dodge Key (Suggested default: V). If you dodge successfully, you take no damage, but it consumes stamina to use. Dodging can also only work for certain more narrow ranges of attacks. So if you dodge to the right, and your opponent is swinging from that direction, it's possible he'll hit you (depending on how quickly he strikes during the dodge). So dodging is harder because it requires better timing and knowing your opponent's swing direction, but is generally better when pulled off because you take no damage when successful. How quickly you dodge is dependent on your speed, which can be determined by your weapons, armor, and stats.

    Weapon Stat Mechanics
    The basic idea with a lot of these mechanics, especially with different swing directions, is that different weapons will offer different bonuses unique to your play style. So some weapons are faster, but deal less damage, and have a smaller hit range. Essentially, each weapon type balances differently between these things:
    Swing speed
    Damage per hit
    Swing range (some weapons are longer and can reach farther out)
    Swing angle (some weapons are also better for wider strikes)
    Critical Hit chance
    Durability

    So like with the middle two stats, a weapon like a spear has a very short blade length, so it doesn't do much good hitting with a wider angle. But a long blade has a longer blade, and so has a large swing angle, since its blade can hit at a wider angle around where you swing, but isn't as long as a spear, and thus doesn't reach as far out. (The reason that a spear doesn't have a wide hit angle is because its blade is short, so the wood doesn't count as dealing a lot of damage, so it extends far, but has a short angle). Even if you don't use those weapons, the point is that you have several kinds of stats (maybe you can make up more) that are varied across different weapons, so different weapons have different pros and cons. Think of it like an allocation chart, and different weapons allocate points in different ratios.

    And the other thing is that all these different forms of attacking and defending are all based on directional hits, and if you want to land a hit or defend one, you've gotta do it correctly. How you defend and attack is dependent on your play style, and your stats. If you have heavy armor and big shields and stuff, you're better off with blocking, and not dodging. Whereas if you're weak but really fast, you'll be better with dodging to reduce damage completely. Speed-based playstyles will probably be the hardest to master, since you have very little defense, but you're also able to completely nullify damage with your speed, and deal large amounts of damage. But whether or not you can do these things are, again, based on your stats. It's harder to dodge with bigger, bulkier weapons and armor, but it's easier to block and tank damage.



    There's a lot more to this system I could probably think of, but I've spent so much time on this that I've probably forgotten a lot of it. And a lot of it may be scrapped, or is already used, or whatever. I just hope I was really useful in giving something to work off of.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  17. Anase Skyrider

    Anase Skyrider Seasoned Adventurer Alpha Key Holder

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    Also: Maybe there should be some kind of visual system in place to make telegraphing, and thus reacting to, these attacks easier.
     
  18. Morika

    Morika Adventurer Adventurer

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    I know its been over a month since anyone added anything to this thread, however I have also been curious as to how the fighting sequences would be managed in this game, the best idea I've come up with which actually runs parallel to most of what has already been mentioned but slightly different in a way as well,
    E.G. what if instead of relying solely on the timing for blocks and parries you used the arrows to divert the attack off to one side or another for a downward slash allowing for an opening while holding the mouse button for the duration of " in this case lets say the shield" is up. then you would release the RMB/LMB and by pressing one key on the keyboard as well as "the attack button" you could either thrust in the opening , do a down slash of your own, kick out to force the opponent back, etc.

    What i'm trying to get at is what if instead of only directional buttons to control the type of slash, think of a combo from any generic game, (down slash then up slash then left slash then spinning slash etc...) what if by pressing one corresponding key on the keyboard plus the attack button you could use the exact attack you intended, forcing the opponent to react to a wide variety of styles. there would be no predictability other then watching how the opposing character moved just before the attack was initiated "bending lower on one knee as he/she prepares for an upward slash, the weapon going well above the head for a downward slash, you could then use the appropriate response. it would certainly make pvp duels more interesting...

    I do however realize this could mean a lot of work for the programmers in charge of action scripting..

    thoughts anyone? or am I too far off base in wanting the fighting styles to be as comprehensive as would be possible.

    **I came to this analysis while watching SAO again For the umpteenth time, and agreeing with the concept of needing to go beyond prescripted combos and making a fighting style your own, i mean if you can control when in your combo to use which available moves it certainly adds originality to each different instance of battle.
     
  19. Jak52684

    Jak52684 Birthday Boy Adventurer

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    That's a good idea, not sure how well it could be implemented in boss fights or against large amounts of mobs though, and there is a game in development with a combat system very similar to your suggestion its called ''for honor''

    It would be cool in pvp but for pve I don't really see that working very well, but maybe I'm just not imagining it well enough.
     
  20. Morika

    Morika Adventurer Adventurer

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    haha don't worry, I've had time to examine it in more detail since I posted this and saw exactly those flaws, it would be great for pvp and even then it would have to be tweaked in several ways to allow for fluid combat because of the several layers of delay involved, including user reaction, execution code, and display of movement which starts again with the other players reaction time and so on... however I do love the idea of being able to mix and match my own combos from a list of available moves, without it being icon clicking as seen in several mmorpgs with cooldown rates and so on simply because they're specialty moves. add to that the fact that clicking icons simply puts another layer of separation between the user and the action, I've just never liked the system. thus my suggestion... still as you yourself have mentioned it would need some serious brainstorming in order to allow for movement and actions being taken all with one hand at the same time on the keyboard with the mouse as the timing implement, and no one has three hands that I know of...:p needs some work but if we can get some devoted people on the issue and resolve the kinks, I can't imagine it would be overly complicated to implement by the programmers... if the game execs approve of course.:)